Date: Mar 26, 2015 08:36 am Title: The Dog Bit. The Bee Stung. P3
1. One-dimensional Villain: here is my downfall in writing fanfiction. Its obvious that my favorite to pick on is Jermaine & Diana, LOL, sorry. I have nothing against him or her though. Its funny because in my second story on this site Jermaine was the gay good guy and Michael was the asshole. But I'm going to take your advice and flesh out the character!
2. Damsel in Distress: uh, I've never really done this. Stacey in Mars vs. Venus isn't really a D.I.D although Michael has helped and Semaj really wasn't either and you know Aaliyah definitely wasn't.
3. Blatant foreshadowing: I've done this once or twice but it worked out nicely. I think I did it in GL.
4. Meet, Sex, Marriage: #DIES. I have not sone this and in now way have I found it as okay. My characters have never tols each other i love you under fifteen chapters in except Michael to Aaliyah but they had already known each other. Also I think Semaj and Michael had a good amount of chapters before getting together(19) and before saying they loved each other(29). It was really supposed to be chapter 35 or 36 but I changed it.
5. Conflict: I usually have no problem with this. I always have conflict.
6. Too Many: PERFECT example - WYWTOM. Too many characters, POVs and Plots.... waaaay too many plots.
7. Sex scene: LOL. "oh gaaaaaaaawd yeeeess Michaaaael! Right theeeeeeeeeeeeerrreeee!" Smh.
8. Run in: I did this in WYWTOM. Big mistake.
Excuse the mispellings and punctuation I'm on my phone, hahha.
1. I'll be writing about supporting characters next, so hopefully that will help.
3. Yep, I remember it in GL lol Not sure about your others.
4. I love that you can say that :)
Thanks :) And I'll ignore errors apart from the misspelling of "haha" lol.
Date: Mar 26, 2015 07:52 am Title: The Dog Bit. The Bee Stung. P3
1. AMEN, sister. I mean, I love certain villains in fiction but the one dimensional villain where the bad guy is evil because he/she can be is a huge turn off and I see it has started to become old in MJ fics to the extent where I get frustrated and not read..or wish I had brain bleach nearby..whichever comes first. If it's not the antagonist being evil for the sake of it, the same tired old excuse is often used or even making a mistake in making someone an antagonist who would not make a good one. And the same antagonist over and over. I mean, if there was truly bad blood between Michael and Diana because she broke his heart by dating Gene Simmons from Kiss, would he have made her second choice for guardian of his children on his will? I think not. Also to keep in mind that even if a certain antagonist in the MJ fiction has serious flaws and issues doesn't make him or her evil, so to consider them evil would be purely subjective. I mean, we all have our faults..just the difference lies in whether some tries to correct them gradually and some just live with them. In general, the bad guys I tend to take a liking to are the ones who are good but were tricked into being evil or who have legit reasons for being evil but don't share it away and at some point ends up on the road to redemption. In short I like bad guys who have potential for good and also if they have traits that make them different from your classic badguy.
2. Agreed. even if the OG is sensitive, there should be some indication she could hold her own and not be a weak, helpless person. I mean, I could deal if a fic starts with her losing confidence and self esteem for some reason, but she has to build both back up gradually. All the OGs in my fics who are of legal age have ways to support themselves and are not moochers off of Michael.
3. guilty of that one especially for my anime fics over on fanfiction.net like if a certain character think he/she is alone and someone is spying, but have toned it down a little..sometimes I use Unbeknownst, though.
4. This one? It boils down to lack of development. I have heard of instances where "love at first sight" happened, but even then, the feelings are hidden for awhile as Michael/OG gets to know each other--having Michael get to know the girl makes the relationship believable and also getting into it too fast causes irreparable damage because there are so many unpleasant surprises, not enough time to get used to the other's bad habit/imperfection, etc.
5.Personally am not the biggest fan of conflict but know it is necessary to make an interesting story. I can be glued to the screen reading a fic, depending on the type of conflict. The biggest issue is when there is too much conflict. That's a huge turn off for me. Especially if it is over the flimsiest things.
6. Too many could be overwhelm the author writing and/or cause a big jumbled mess.
7.I got you on that one. there are times I don't use a tag at the end of the dialogue.
8. yes, it is imperative to consider what is likely and what isn't.
9. ah, the list of misused homophones..there's also allude(refer) vs elude(escape)
1. I obviously agree about the villains. My use of the term "evil" was to emphasize how strongly some characters get portrayed as being the worst of the worst. TBH my motto is that there aren't bad people, there are just people who do bad things. Everyone has their backstory. The trick is to reveal the backstory without doing awkward info-dumps.
3. Is that consistent with your POV? I assume you are doing 3rd POV Omniscient?
heh. I just realized that you are right, I didn't cover allude or elude. I took all of mine from actual stories, so either 1) I'm missing the fanfics with that error, 2) Most authors don't feel comfortable with/are aware of those terms, or 3)The authors who use them, know how to use them. Either way, you know that my eyes will now be looking for those errors!
Thanks as always :)
Date: Mar 25, 2015 08:44 am Title: The Basics
I apologize if my last post came off as trying to change your opinion on dreams in a story. It really wasn't my intention. It was more for a personal inquiry outside of stories. Dreams are a personal interest of mine and I know some people don't feel they have any bearing on our reality. I was just being nosy. Lol. Your answer did cover things though so thank you for that and bearing with me.
It kinda did, so I'm glad to hear that wasn't your intention. Sorry if I was short. I believe that dreams can have a significant impact in some ways, but not in the scenarios you described. For instance, PTSD is often expressed in dreams that feature a trauma being in some way repeated and reexperienced. One might then avoid sleep, use substances to try and block the dreams or decrease arousal, leading to substance dependence or legal issues. Or, because of poor sleep and being constantly on edge, they might become more irritable, argumentative, and emotional with others. A similar change in personality could be said for having sleep terrors or sleep paralysis. The point being, these are very significant and worrisome conditions, and not typical dreams.
Now, dreams (and nightmares) in general, can key one into their feelings/stresses/distress that they might not otherwise be aware of. Now, am I a fan of dream dictionaries or whatnot? Generally not. Too formulaic and removed from context, imo.
Date: Mar 24, 2015 08:25 pm Title: The Basics
Lol cool cause I love discussions too. And it's no sweat at all bb we're sharing thoughts and ideas and I'm always open...<3
Let me pick your brain further...
So this thought is less about the stories in general and more about experience vs theory.(<--I can't think of a better word to fit right now)I'll use the example of stubbing my toe. I can have an in depth discussion with you about stubbing my toe he possible feelings and harm that can come from it etc. I can even watch people stub their toes And try to understand how they're dealing with the feelings from it. To go even furher I could reminisce on having stubbed my toe before but the only way I can truly know what stubbing my toe on that particular corner of the coffee table feels like is to actually stub my toe on that corner. How does this correlate? If you dreamt about stubbing your toe on that corner and the feeling is fresh in your mind, it might as well had happened physically cause you recall the pain even the small cut you got from it, that expereince would make me want to stay away or at least be weary of that corner of the coffee table. So that being said do you think that outside of stories that is, that a dream can provide you with foresight? or is it more of a hindrance cause you can't live your life avoiding the coffee table just because of a dream?
I think dreams can definitely provide insight. Jungian psychology exists for a reason. I'm not exactly sure what you are asking as there are several hypothetical questions in there. What I've been trying to say, and what I am not going to change my opinion on, is that I do not think that a dream justifies significant OOC actions. I could see a slight and brief modification of action, but not a significant and lasting change. Does that in anyway answer any of your questions? I hope so!
Date: Mar 24, 2015 08:02 pm Title: Knowing Your POV: Who's on First?
Thank you so much for the tips they have been a huge help for me. :) God Bless You -Eleanor M
Thank you for letting me know that you've found it useful! Please let me know if there is anything else you'd like me to touch on :)
Date: Mar 24, 2015 07:42 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
In that story him falling into a deep sleep state was due to him getting drunk and ultimately passing out. In Inked his lack of sleep and then him finally succumbing to it. I used those scenarios as my lead in that what was coming could possibly be a dream. I hope that explains that part.
Don't worry I'm not trying to change your mind on your thoughts about dream sequences being used at all. I completely get where you're coming from. Just trying to give you an idea of why I used them.
As for the parameters of the story I used as the example, Michael was canon so going to a bar and discussing things with a bartender or people in general was out. He did however have a conversation with Bill Bray about it all after the dream. That convo solidified what he'd gotten from the dream even more. It wasn't a case of me not knowing how to express the scenario otherwise it was more a matter of me wanting him living it and feeling the feelings if he had gone through with his plan without the actual real consequences. I still see it as different as just talking about it and observing it with others.
I see what you're saying about it being a repetitive concept. You're. Right on that. It's however repetative for the reader and not necessarily the character.
As for dreams lacking human interaction I would have to disagree on that and here's why... Dreams allow us to interact with people who we've lost or even those we've never met in physical reality. I'm going off the premise of my own belief that human interaction is not only on a physical I can touch you you can touch me level. The interaction is real enough in that moment of space time. I know that's delving off into a tangent of metaphysics. (It's how my mind works)
I'm going way way off with this tangent but it's something I'm really into so bear with me ok? Lol. Have you ever had a monent when you had a memory and you couldn't place whether it was dreamt or it physically happened? Does that make the memory real or no?
Lol just a thought.
I'm going to shut up now lol. I'm sorry I hijacked your comments section for an all out tangent discussion. It's a passion. :)
I wasn't questioning your reasoning for considering a dream sequence. I apologize if it came off that way.
Michael was known to overshare when drunk, so having not read the story, my (uneducated) thought would be talking to Bill while drunk and having Bill later reflect it to him. Again, I have no clue if that'd work. Make no mistake, I'm not trying to say that you did something wrong. I'm just putting forth the argument that there are alternatives. Some people like dream sequences, I still don't.
I think it can be repetitive for both. The reader, however, is who consumes the stories, so I don't know if that distinction is necessary.
Yes, I have had that experience. The memory is real, but it is also not something that changes my actions dramatically. It's something I ponder and move on from. When dreams are too literal and realistic, as they often are in stories, they feel less like a dream and more like an attempt to sneak more into the story.
I'm totally cool with discussions. LOL I actually love them. :)
Date: Mar 24, 2015 04:11 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
Lol I have no idea what 'deer words' mean. But I meant fewer words incase you where scratching you're head like wtf. Lmao. <333
LOL. I think I figured that one out. BTW thanks for the question/explaining your thoughts. I love getting to flush out a topic like this :)
Date: Mar 24, 2015 03:36 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
For the dream sequence I could only express why I use them. I've used it once before in another one of my stories. (It best explains in deer words your query. I hope at least)?In the story Michael started to feel apprehensive about how strongly he felt for the OG so in true fashion instead of tackling it head on due to his fears and insecurities of past relationships he takes off leaving the OG behind in the guise of a business trip of sorts. While he's away on 'business' he decides he's going to just end the relationship instead of facing his fears. During that time he's broken up about it so he drank.(I always as a catalyst to open the possibility that would bring on deep sleep here him getting drunk. In Inked his lack of sleep) He fell asleep and dreamt he went through with the break up. as he watched the OG leave his life and it was too late he realized what a big mistake he had made. Long story short he started from the dream. The dream in essence provided a view into how devastating his actions would have been if he had carried them out. Long story short with renewed confidence instead of breaking up with her he asks her to marry him. If he had gone through with the break up the drama it would have brought to the story would have been unnecessary for the storyline so the dream provided the experience with out the baggage. For this particular story the dream sequence was also the prologue to the story. I don't know if this explains very well what you were asking. It's early Red!!!! Lollllllll
Oh and what do you mean when you say it gets repetitive? Do you mean from story to story or within the particular story itself?
dear = clear?
"that would bring on deep sleep here him getting drunk." -->???
I can see how a dream sequence could fit there, at the same time, I'm still sticking by my statement that it is unnecessary.
So, I guess that leaves us at the question of how else might that message have been conveyed?
-Such deep thinking/decision change could have been accomplished by having a friend or family member question him (as they often do IRL) or have him watch other couples and start thinking harder about things.
-When anxious or overwhelmed, peoples' minds often go to the worst case scenario, so a dream isn't necessary. Shoot, he could have gone on an emotive tangent with the bartender during a black out from the alcohol. Left his keys, and come back the next day to have the bartender tell him all of the fears he'd expressed. Like with a dream, this gives the experience without the baggage, while adding another level of emotional experience/human interaction that dreams lack.
Thoughts? I hope this makes sense.
Repetitive: dreams are often used to further a point that is already obvious to the reader. It's just that the author is insecure/unsure about their skill in making that point, so they turn to a dream. In this case, the message the author is trying to send to the reader, is actually just a repetition of what the reader already knows.
Date: Mar 24, 2015 03:27 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
I have no idea! I wasn't thinking at all. I kmow not it's better to keep them than to delete them.And I would save chapters sparsely on my computer ao I didn't have them all in a consecutive order. ): .
What's on mjje?
profile comments - easier to chat on ;)
The easiest thing that I've found, is to just save it all in email. Gmail and all the others do autosave.
Date: Mar 24, 2015 01:02 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
Love this!! As usual.
I think sometimes I take issues with stories that trigger things that I've seen or have happened to me in the past. The way someone has been treated that you find alarming, or glamorising some type of cliche even in the essence of the writer trying to use a "cliche" or a bad trait or bad action of the character in order to juice up a story or to make it controversial.
I'm not really talking about cheating, but I've read a fiction awhile ago where Michael occasionally hit an OG because he couldn't control his temper. He would have sex (with assumed consent) roughly and disrespectfully and leave the OG feeling used and hurt. The comments would go from being disgusted to excitable and those types of things make me feel ... wrong for reading. I can only assume a writer who writes these story lines so gleefully has never had to experience such a thing in real life (same as the excitable readers) because I feel like the way it would be written would be with less "excitement" and more compassion and consideration and respect for the themes. And generally, the rest of the story would be written in a canon way. It was totally OOC and it made me just close down the window and try to find something else.
I don't mind getting absorbed in something like the above if it is tasteful. There is a very fine line between cliche and tasteful and some writer's unfortunately don't know how to walk that tightrope.
As usual Red, you've done it again :)
Helping writers, one cliche at a time! :P
Thanks SW :)
I think that's a fair point. Cliches become cliches because they do happen; the thing is if the stereotype or overused trait/twist/scene isn't handled with adequate care, it can take on a whole new (unintended) life of its own.
Helping writers or pissing off writers....I'm never quite sure which will happen lol.
Date: Mar 23, 2015 08:50 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
They were called Beg For It & Dirty Secrets.
I started them around the same time I started my Michael and Giavanni story. BFI was a good 28 xhapters before I deleted it and DS was no more than 6. I wish I would've kept them!
28 chapters and you just deleted it?! Brandy Brandy Brandy. Por qué? btw - go on mjje!
Date: Mar 23, 2015 12:38 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
okay well first of all I like that you used the Spanish translation sof the last set of words lmao
On the survey thingy, I don't even know what the results were about. I think it's for somebody's project or something? I just enjoyed the way the questionnaire made me think about my story/plot!
Hate dream sequences, hate random ooc...I think the only time dream sequences work would be during a scifi fic? Maybe if it happened like 1/2 way through an incredibly well-written story I'd be able to swallow it...haven't come across much, thank god.
I'm torn on love triangles. There's obviously one in my story, but Diana wasn't really an ex. She was there first, lol. I DO hate when the ex KEEPS REAPPEARING just to cause problems. My feeling is that once the pair is finally, finally together, the ex should just disappear. To have them constantly popping up is just a tired trope.
lmao I've never even considered the watergun fight thing. However, that brings up a point that often stumps me about mjff. There's fairly little depiction of Michael's childlike side, which was obviously a huge thing irl. It's a fine line that I've been trying to consider for a while. Where do you fit in kids? Where do you fit in games? It's hard to do in a romance! I totally agree that there's a time and a place for everything and random watergun fights are incredibly awkward...but there has to be a better way to convey what that point is going for...Hmm....
On the Codependent Couple, I think both characters should be semi-assholes, tbh. I've never understood ff pairing that are 100% happy and have no source of inner conflict/fighting. That being said, negative qualities should be intentional and addressed.
Hmm. I don't think I'm a thesaurous addict. I hope not! The worst is when an author latches on to a new word that would've been fine that one instance in context...but then they just keep using it over, and over, and over...I'm always afraid of repetition in my writing so I do my best to keep an eye out for that sort of thing. It's so horribly cringeworthy to me.
The Spanish translations - certain terms I immediately translate into Spanish. I'm full of random.
Thanks Ann. I want to post more resources, I just want to make sure that the resources are fairly concise. When I saw that it was over 100 q and all of the ones I saw at first glance were organized around the OC's sexual identity, I was unsure.
The only dream sequences I've been okay with have appeared in fantasy stories. The Night Circus, Harry Potter, etc. When magic is controlling the dream. That way it added to the story, rather than being repetitive.
Love triangles- they can be good. They can be annoying. It all depends on how they are approached. I agree about the obsessive ex.
I think it's fairly easy to fit fun/games into a ff. Think of celebrity kids he hung out with as well as his nieces and nephews....comics, video games, tv shows, chess, playing pranks, etc. I'd love to see more of these than the watergun fights. A late night convo while swinging/going down slides.
LOL. Agreed. Couples argue...as do friends. It's connecting after a fight, that makes a relationship stronger.
Date: Mar 23, 2015 09:40 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
Well when I think of love triangles i think of the OG and Michael torn between two people that they cant choose. I dont think of bringing in an unwanted ex as a love triangle. But now if it is then totally disregard #1 because I do like them and use them. I just don't like Michael being in love with two girls at once and having to choose because nine times out of ten I like them both soooo.... it ends up being a heartbreak for m so I just steer away from them (love triangles) completely.
About the OOC: Ohhhh. That was a really slow moment but now I understand how you meant it. Well then I believe I've made Michael OOC in my stories without building it up first (big mistake). Majority of my OG's maintain their character except Semaj. Since I made her personality soft spoken and shy then I've made her OOC a few times.
And thank you! But I'm mad I didn't save the first two stories I started here before I deleted them. I wish I hadn't because it would be nice to go back to but I started saving my stories now.
Ah - thanks for clarifying :)
I think we all go a little OOC sometimes, depending on stress levels, etc. As long as you can make a case for it, it's all good.
Which stories were those?
Date: Mar 23, 2015 08:06 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
1. Love triangles: they are not for me! I cannot stand them. Now, i can tolerate a past ex or something but the two women and Michael or the two men and the OG no way. Maybe because I haven't read one that I actually enjoyed or that was thw least bit realistic. I'm going to try HoneyTooTheBee's though, just to see.
2. OOC without cause: as you know my Michael's are always OOC. I never try to write him "normally".
3. Dream sequence: i do not use these. I mean i wouldn't know how to withoit making the story turn a different way but to make sure I have a understanding of what this truly is.... would that be when the OG will have a dream of Michael dying and knowing the when and where?
4. Codependent Couple: AGREED.
5. The watergun fight: I used this in my younger MJFF days between the ages of 11-13 but I haven't used them since I was 13. Mars Vs. Venus is the only story I've used a watergun fight in and that was becausw there were booku kids.
6. I do not try and use big words. I only use words that I know and if I know a word but not sure what it means then I will look it up. But I'm not just going to look up a big word in place of a smaller word when a smaller word can get the point across just as good. My 20+ year old readers are just going to have to be content with my 16 year old vocabulary.
Now like Tut said I agree. I write how I talk in real life. Excluding some of Michael's nasty language I'm a mixture of him and Semaj. Semaj when I'm around adults that I know and don't know and Michael when I'm with friends, cousins, siblings etc. I try to use common slang for my readers too because its easier to figure out what some stuff means.
And I have a question. Once you delete a story on here is there anyway you can pull it back up?
1. I think they can be good and they can be annoying. I didn't realize that you didn't like them? You've done them in most/all of your stories, right?
2. OOC without a cause doesn't refer to how you portray MJ. It refers to an act/attitude that is different from the personality that you've set up.
3. Yes, that is one set up for a dream sequence. It can vary.
5. I totally see it happening with kids involved.
6. LOL. Do you!
No. I'd save it in another file, before deleting. Or just hit the "print" button, opt to save as a pdf.