Date: Mar 24, 2015 07:42 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
In that story him falling into a deep sleep state was due to him getting drunk and ultimately passing out. In Inked his lack of sleep and then him finally succumbing to it. I used those scenarios as my lead in that what was coming could possibly be a dream. I hope that explains that part.
Don't worry I'm not trying to change your mind on your thoughts about dream sequences being used at all. I completely get where you're coming from. Just trying to give you an idea of why I used them.
As for the parameters of the story I used as the example, Michael was canon so going to a bar and discussing things with a bartender or people in general was out. He did however have a conversation with Bill Bray about it all after the dream. That convo solidified what he'd gotten from the dream even more. It wasn't a case of me not knowing how to express the scenario otherwise it was more a matter of me wanting him living it and feeling the feelings if he had gone through with his plan without the actual real consequences. I still see it as different as just talking about it and observing it with others.
I see what you're saying about it being a repetitive concept. You're. Right on that. It's however repetative for the reader and not necessarily the character.
As for dreams lacking human interaction I would have to disagree on that and here's why... Dreams allow us to interact with people who we've lost or even those we've never met in physical reality. I'm going off the premise of my own belief that human interaction is not only on a physical I can touch you you can touch me level. The interaction is real enough in that moment of space time. I know that's delving off into a tangent of metaphysics. (It's how my mind works)
I'm going way way off with this tangent but it's something I'm really into so bear with me ok? Lol. Have you ever had a monent when you had a memory and you couldn't place whether it was dreamt or it physically happened? Does that make the memory real or no?
Lol just a thought.
I'm going to shut up now lol. I'm sorry I hijacked your comments section for an all out tangent discussion. It's a passion. :)
I wasn't questioning your reasoning for considering a dream sequence. I apologize if it came off that way.
Michael was known to overshare when drunk, so having not read the story, my (uneducated) thought would be talking to Bill while drunk and having Bill later reflect it to him. Again, I have no clue if that'd work. Make no mistake, I'm not trying to say that you did something wrong. I'm just putting forth the argument that there are alternatives. Some people like dream sequences, I still don't.
I think it can be repetitive for both. The reader, however, is who consumes the stories, so I don't know if that distinction is necessary.
Yes, I have had that experience. The memory is real, but it is also not something that changes my actions dramatically. It's something I ponder and move on from. When dreams are too literal and realistic, as they often are in stories, they feel less like a dream and more like an attempt to sneak more into the story.
I'm totally cool with discussions. LOL I actually love them. :)
Date: Mar 24, 2015 04:11 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
Lol I have no idea what 'deer words' mean. But I meant fewer words incase you where scratching you're head like wtf. Lmao. <333
LOL. I think I figured that one out. BTW thanks for the question/explaining your thoughts. I love getting to flush out a topic like this :)
Date: Mar 24, 2015 03:36 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
For the dream sequence I could only express why I use them. I've used it once before in another one of my stories. (It best explains in deer words your query. I hope at least)?In the story Michael started to feel apprehensive about how strongly he felt for the OG so in true fashion instead of tackling it head on due to his fears and insecurities of past relationships he takes off leaving the OG behind in the guise of a business trip of sorts. While he's away on 'business' he decides he's going to just end the relationship instead of facing his fears. During that time he's broken up about it so he drank.(I always as a catalyst to open the possibility that would bring on deep sleep here him getting drunk. In Inked his lack of sleep) He fell asleep and dreamt he went through with the break up. as he watched the OG leave his life and it was too late he realized what a big mistake he had made. Long story short he started from the dream. The dream in essence provided a view into how devastating his actions would have been if he had carried them out. Long story short with renewed confidence instead of breaking up with her he asks her to marry him. If he had gone through with the break up the drama it would have brought to the story would have been unnecessary for the storyline so the dream provided the experience with out the baggage. For this particular story the dream sequence was also the prologue to the story. I don't know if this explains very well what you were asking. It's early Red!!!! Lollllllll
Oh and what do you mean when you say it gets repetitive? Do you mean from story to story or within the particular story itself?
dear = clear?
"that would bring on deep sleep here him getting drunk." -->???
I can see how a dream sequence could fit there, at the same time, I'm still sticking by my statement that it is unnecessary.
So, I guess that leaves us at the question of how else might that message have been conveyed?
-Such deep thinking/decision change could have been accomplished by having a friend or family member question him (as they often do IRL) or have him watch other couples and start thinking harder about things.
-When anxious or overwhelmed, peoples' minds often go to the worst case scenario, so a dream isn't necessary. Shoot, he could have gone on an emotive tangent with the bartender during a black out from the alcohol. Left his keys, and come back the next day to have the bartender tell him all of the fears he'd expressed. Like with a dream, this gives the experience without the baggage, while adding another level of emotional experience/human interaction that dreams lack.
Thoughts? I hope this makes sense.
Repetitive: dreams are often used to further a point that is already obvious to the reader. It's just that the author is insecure/unsure about their skill in making that point, so they turn to a dream. In this case, the message the author is trying to send to the reader, is actually just a repetition of what the reader already knows.
Date: Mar 24, 2015 03:27 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
I have no idea! I wasn't thinking at all. I kmow not it's better to keep them than to delete them.And I would save chapters sparsely on my computer ao I didn't have them all in a consecutive order. ): .
What's on mjje?
profile comments - easier to chat on ;)
The easiest thing that I've found, is to just save it all in email. Gmail and all the others do autosave.
Date: Mar 24, 2015 01:02 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
Love this!! As usual.
I think sometimes I take issues with stories that trigger things that I've seen or have happened to me in the past. The way someone has been treated that you find alarming, or glamorising some type of cliche even in the essence of the writer trying to use a "cliche" or a bad trait or bad action of the character in order to juice up a story or to make it controversial.
I'm not really talking about cheating, but I've read a fiction awhile ago where Michael occasionally hit an OG because he couldn't control his temper. He would have sex (with assumed consent) roughly and disrespectfully and leave the OG feeling used and hurt. The comments would go from being disgusted to excitable and those types of things make me feel ... wrong for reading. I can only assume a writer who writes these story lines so gleefully has never had to experience such a thing in real life (same as the excitable readers) because I feel like the way it would be written would be with less "excitement" and more compassion and consideration and respect for the themes. And generally, the rest of the story would be written in a canon way. It was totally OOC and it made me just close down the window and try to find something else.
I don't mind getting absorbed in something like the above if it is tasteful. There is a very fine line between cliche and tasteful and some writer's unfortunately don't know how to walk that tightrope.
As usual Red, you've done it again :)
Helping writers, one cliche at a time! :P
Thanks SW :)
I think that's a fair point. Cliches become cliches because they do happen; the thing is if the stereotype or overused trait/twist/scene isn't handled with adequate care, it can take on a whole new (unintended) life of its own.
Helping writers or pissing off writers....I'm never quite sure which will happen lol.
Date: Mar 23, 2015 08:50 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
They were called Beg For It & Dirty Secrets.
I started them around the same time I started my Michael and Giavanni story. BFI was a good 28 xhapters before I deleted it and DS was no more than 6. I wish I would've kept them!
28 chapters and you just deleted it?! Brandy Brandy Brandy. Por qué? btw - go on mjje!
Date: Mar 23, 2015 12:38 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
okay well first of all I like that you used the Spanish translation sof the last set of words lmao
On the survey thingy, I don't even know what the results were about. I think it's for somebody's project or something? I just enjoyed the way the questionnaire made me think about my story/plot!
Hate dream sequences, hate random ooc...I think the only time dream sequences work would be during a scifi fic? Maybe if it happened like 1/2 way through an incredibly well-written story I'd be able to swallow it...haven't come across much, thank god.
I'm torn on love triangles. There's obviously one in my story, but Diana wasn't really an ex. She was there first, lol. I DO hate when the ex KEEPS REAPPEARING just to cause problems. My feeling is that once the pair is finally, finally together, the ex should just disappear. To have them constantly popping up is just a tired trope.
lmao I've never even considered the watergun fight thing. However, that brings up a point that often stumps me about mjff. There's fairly little depiction of Michael's childlike side, which was obviously a huge thing irl. It's a fine line that I've been trying to consider for a while. Where do you fit in kids? Where do you fit in games? It's hard to do in a romance! I totally agree that there's a time and a place for everything and random watergun fights are incredibly awkward...but there has to be a better way to convey what that point is going for...Hmm....
On the Codependent Couple, I think both characters should be semi-assholes, tbh. I've never understood ff pairing that are 100% happy and have no source of inner conflict/fighting. That being said, negative qualities should be intentional and addressed.
Hmm. I don't think I'm a thesaurous addict. I hope not! The worst is when an author latches on to a new word that would've been fine that one instance in context...but then they just keep using it over, and over, and over...I'm always afraid of repetition in my writing so I do my best to keep an eye out for that sort of thing. It's so horribly cringeworthy to me.
The Spanish translations - certain terms I immediately translate into Spanish. I'm full of random.
Thanks Ann. I want to post more resources, I just want to make sure that the resources are fairly concise. When I saw that it was over 100 q and all of the ones I saw at first glance were organized around the OC's sexual identity, I was unsure.
The only dream sequences I've been okay with have appeared in fantasy stories. The Night Circus, Harry Potter, etc. When magic is controlling the dream. That way it added to the story, rather than being repetitive.
Love triangles- they can be good. They can be annoying. It all depends on how they are approached. I agree about the obsessive ex.
I think it's fairly easy to fit fun/games into a ff. Think of celebrity kids he hung out with as well as his nieces and nephews....comics, video games, tv shows, chess, playing pranks, etc. I'd love to see more of these than the watergun fights. A late night convo while swinging/going down slides.
LOL. Agreed. Couples argue...as do friends. It's connecting after a fight, that makes a relationship stronger.
Date: Mar 23, 2015 09:40 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
Well when I think of love triangles i think of the OG and Michael torn between two people that they cant choose. I dont think of bringing in an unwanted ex as a love triangle. But now if it is then totally disregard #1 because I do like them and use them. I just don't like Michael being in love with two girls at once and having to choose because nine times out of ten I like them both soooo.... it ends up being a heartbreak for m so I just steer away from them (love triangles) completely.
About the OOC: Ohhhh. That was a really slow moment but now I understand how you meant it. Well then I believe I've made Michael OOC in my stories without building it up first (big mistake). Majority of my OG's maintain their character except Semaj. Since I made her personality soft spoken and shy then I've made her OOC a few times.
And thank you! But I'm mad I didn't save the first two stories I started here before I deleted them. I wish I hadn't because it would be nice to go back to but I started saving my stories now.
Ah - thanks for clarifying :)
I think we all go a little OOC sometimes, depending on stress levels, etc. As long as you can make a case for it, it's all good.
Which stories were those?
Date: Mar 23, 2015 08:06 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
1. Love triangles: they are not for me! I cannot stand them. Now, i can tolerate a past ex or something but the two women and Michael or the two men and the OG no way. Maybe because I haven't read one that I actually enjoyed or that was thw least bit realistic. I'm going to try HoneyTooTheBee's though, just to see.
2. OOC without cause: as you know my Michael's are always OOC. I never try to write him "normally".
3. Dream sequence: i do not use these. I mean i wouldn't know how to withoit making the story turn a different way but to make sure I have a understanding of what this truly is.... would that be when the OG will have a dream of Michael dying and knowing the when and where?
4. Codependent Couple: AGREED.
5. The watergun fight: I used this in my younger MJFF days between the ages of 11-13 but I haven't used them since I was 13. Mars Vs. Venus is the only story I've used a watergun fight in and that was becausw there were booku kids.
6. I do not try and use big words. I only use words that I know and if I know a word but not sure what it means then I will look it up. But I'm not just going to look up a big word in place of a smaller word when a smaller word can get the point across just as good. My 20+ year old readers are just going to have to be content with my 16 year old vocabulary.
Now like Tut said I agree. I write how I talk in real life. Excluding some of Michael's nasty language I'm a mixture of him and Semaj. Semaj when I'm around adults that I know and don't know and Michael when I'm with friends, cousins, siblings etc. I try to use common slang for my readers too because its easier to figure out what some stuff means.
And I have a question. Once you delete a story on here is there anyway you can pull it back up?
1. I think they can be good and they can be annoying. I didn't realize that you didn't like them? You've done them in most/all of your stories, right?
2. OOC without a cause doesn't refer to how you portray MJ. It refers to an act/attitude that is different from the personality that you've set up.
3. Yes, that is one set up for a dream sequence. It can vary.
5. I totally see it happening with kids involved.
6. LOL. Do you!
No. I'd save it in another file, before deleting. Or just hit the "print" button, opt to save as a pdf.
Date: Mar 23, 2015 06:16 am Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
1)I don't mind so much the return of the ex. Sometimes that gives insight to past behaviors of the OG/Michael but I get where it can be too much at times. Especially when they try to inflict bodily harm on the OG/Michael to get them out of the way.
2)I agree. If you're going to have the character do certain things build it into their personality. Have lead ups and reasons why such an action would occur. The sudden shift can be quite jarring.
3)Lol I knew this part was coming. I do have to say though that sometimes thoughts and interactions may not be able to accomplish or conevy a scenario well enough to evoke the feelings and reactions the character would have without actually experiencing the event. While dreams don't have the same boundaries of reality some dreams are grounded in reality which has the person locked into believing it's actually happening that is until they wake up.
4)totally agree I can't get why one would want to maintain a relationship that amounts to nothing but unnecessary foolishness. It can get tiresome if the same scenario keeps happening for the sake of drama. (I Know it does happen tho)
5)Agreed. Time and place is everything.
6)I some what agree sometimes synonyms become over used. There is nothing wrong with using the word face instead of visage. A well timed synonym though can be gold. It's all about placement like you said. The way I write is actually how I talk in real life. From slang to proper English and back again. Lol. Like this is a sentence I have actually used.
"Nah son!! Stop being obtuse.." Lmao.
I chalk it up to being from a country that uses the queens English as its base and NYC influences. I've had the 'trying to talk white' (what ever that means)phrase thrown at me a couple of times. In real life I would use the word inebriated instead of drunk but knowing when to use it in writing is key eg...
"He was inebriated with lust." Drunk just fits better for this sentence. Makes it more raw.
"He was driven, compelled, inebriated by it, the lust." It's more effective here. Again its time, placement, connotation and moderation.
Great insights as usual.
More soon! <333
1) When they conspire to break up OG/Michael? That's my "I'm out!" moment.
3) It had been part of the first list, but got bumped back b/c I had too many points to cover. I'm curious as to what you think dreams can accomplish that real scenes can't. I have yet to see that be the case. For me, they are usually just repetitious.
6) That's an example of how slang doesn't mean a person isn't intelligent or well-read. It's simply a dialect. Your first 'inebriated' example had me rolling...because I've seen it.
Date: Mar 22, 2015 08:43 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
The love triangle. I'm good with love triangles. OBVIOUSLY I've got one of my own going. I mean I created it with the purpose of it being a triangle, but minus all the drama and crazy psychotic behavior. It's one of those things that if its well written and all of the character's actions make sense and they have motive other than Oh Michael thinks he's gonna get another girl!? I want him back!
If the ex girl is gonna randomly come back make her be pregnant with his baby or something or have a kid by him that he doesn't know about.
Another cringe thing for me is the cheat scene when Michael or the OG JUST HAPPEN to be at the exact right place at the right time. I mean sure that can happen, but I'd rather feel suspense and lead up. Like the OG is brunette and she finds a blond hair on his jacket. Lipstick on his face, stories he tells that don't add up, etc.
The dream sequence? I dont' know what this is. When you include a dream in your story? I can't say if that bothers me or not...
The Codependent couple - sad things about this is... it's often reality. I can read a good dysfunctional couple story. It's a change from all of the happily ever afters you usually see. BUT it's weird when the relationship just randomly makes a turn from dysfunctional to happily ever after...
The watergun fight - That doesn't bother me so much. I'm pretty sure its in like 2 of my fics. It was one of his favorite things to do! Summertime + outside + Michael I'd assume some water is being thrown. I mean if every single time they step outside he's shooting the OG in the face... but on average, I expect to probably see it at some point.
I don't use a thesaurus or dictionary... but I probably should. Sometimes I use the Urban dictionary just to confirm something means what I think it means. STL uses a lot of crazy slang I get around some people and its like we're speakin' a different language.
Love Triangle: On the one hand, I get it, but at the same time the frequency makes it a cliche. It doesn't mean it's necessarily bad, it just means that I think authors might do well to look beyond it sometimes. Don't rely on it always being the primary conflict. That being said, completely tossing it would be extreme.
Ah, good point. The Far-Fetched Run In. Excellent point. I hadn't thought of adding it to the list, but it is one of those things that I also cringe at. Once, I can handle it, as the world is a bit random at times, but over and over? Naw. I like your ideas for a suspenseful build up. Subtle, realistic, and suspenseful.
Yes, it's when the narrative or chapter is suddenly written to show a dream. No lead-in, often no warning.
Oh, I agree, it is often reality. I think having that is an awesome opportunity to show character growth and the growth of the couple. I probably should have included this, but my main issue is when it appears as though the author is glamorizing such a relationship and assumes it's idyllic.
I think I've just read too many awkward ones/unrealistic ones. I could see it in certain circumstances, but not in every circumstance. I think a lot of authors skip over other things he loved to do. He loved to learn, so much so that his bodyguards said they learned something new from him on a daily basis. He was also deeply spiritual (Think Deepak, the Dalai Lama, Dyer) and often mentored others. I think those three aspects of MJ are often overlooked (aside from the JW influence). I'd love to see more of those in stories.
I like your writing without those. I feel ya on UD. I'm constantly trying to figure out if the 'cuz' or 'bro' is actually a relative or not. Then, if as a relative, they are actually the cousin or the brother. I'm obv not thug.
Date: Mar 22, 2015 01:17 pm Title: When the Dog Bites. When the Bee Stings PT2 (Updated)
1.The love triange seems to be very common and it's always the same ex, usually having her be so OOC it's not funny..
2.AMEN..those type of moments cause me to go.."what on earth just happened"?
3. Most agreed..could make lots of unwanted drama in the fic
4. Guilty of that one in my Betrayed Trust fic..but it was in a scene that really fit..I had written about Prince's 6th birthday and Nancy Malnick's children had come over but Michael had not participated because he was still nursing the spider bites so he couldn't very well be in tip top condition.
5. That right there was one of the issues I had with my former Prep 2 English teacher back in college..he would encourage people to use big words in their essays to enhance their vocabulary when 9 times out of ten students didn't know what they mean
6. Couldn't help but chuckle at the last one with common errors in diction..I know sadly you're not making it up..makes me think of one episode of The Weakest Link where George Gray had once asked the rhethorical question "who thought the word knowledge starts with the letter n"? I do, however let those slide when it's an author who has a learning disability..
1. It really is. On the one hand, I get it, but at the same time the frequency makes it a cliche.
3. Yep. When I was looking around the interwebz for others' opinions, it seemed pretty well-established that authors like to include them, but readers (for the most part) tend to skip over them.
4. One out of 6 isn't bad, by any means.
5. I think big words are fine, if they are appropriate and fit the story. One needs to know the literacy level of their audience and adjust their writing appropriately. As such, my writing is different when it is for a 13-year-old, than for a PhD, than for a professor, than for the general public. The major problem is when this: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c4/38/99/c43899f3319b07d2ffc10eaada54e8f3.jpg happens....and it happens to a lot of great authors (too big to post as a pic)
6. I also let it slide when the author is ESL. What scares me is that the worst offenses are by native English speakers.